Skills anyone?? [update]
Since this blog is one of those places that makes flying outdoors look fun, I want to point out, again, that in addition to having a good recall, it’s critical to have good flight skills as well. If you want a bird that can stay alive that is. Good flight skills include: can maneuver well and turn sharply, can fly down from heights, has been flying indoors or in a controlled environment long enough to have developed some muscle strength, and does not have partially clipped or damaged wings. Things a predator will have a field day with (”predators” including dogs, cats, raptors, and cars, not to mention birds like seagulls, ravens and crows who can just be intent on chasing an intruder away): a bird who is not acclimated to being outdoors, has little to no ability to turn or maneuver, has never flown down from heights before, has wings that physically impair its ability to turn or fly fast, has never flown in wind, has little stamina.
No matter what position one takes on training recall, or the method used to train it, it is just supremely irresponsible to put a bird at risk by rushing the move outdoors when basic flight skills are not in place. And yet I see people doing just that, and encouraging others to do so.
I would really like to find a single serious trainer who believes this isn’t true. All it takes is one surprise stiff breeze or startle flight. Even with a bird who is ready with these skills the transition outdoors is a very risky time because it’s a totally new environment. Adding the handicap of poor skills is terribly unfair to the bird.
(Oh, gee, there I go being “negative” again!)
Update:
First, for those who are not familiar with free flight lingo, any flight outdoors without restraints is “free flight.” Just because you’re only asking for 2-4 feet does not mean that’s “recall training” and not free flight. If a bird has a spook flight or gets caught in an unexpected wind, that 4 foot recall you were asking for becomes completely irrelevant. I believe flight skills and recall should be trained together; that doesn’t mean you do the most rudimentary recall with a completely inexperienced, partially clipped bird outdoors. As much as possible should be done indoors — learning how to land, turn, make sharp maneuvers, fly down. The bigger the indoor location (or aviary) the better. For flying in wind I personally like using a harness for that on a windy day so the bird can get the feel of how to deal with it without being blown away. (Here’s Carly on an extremely windy day practicing.)
Secondly, those who want to comment under the guise of a false identity may want to consider methods other than pseudonyms and fake email addresses. The odds that three different commenters on this blog site (say, for example, “Dave,” “Ron,” and “Joe”) would randomly have the same address, even if they were all on AOL and all in the same region of the country, are more than 4 billion to one, going by the way AOL assigns addresses. When you add in the fact that IP addresses are generally recycled back to the same computer whenever possible, the odds are even slimmer. But then I guess 4 billion in one things do happen once every 4 billion times or so.
Comments have been closed on this thread since they are getting very off topic and rambly.
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September 2nd, 2009 at 12:54 pm
I have a problem with this statement. First of everyone on the different networks that claim to be bird experts I would like to see some real verification. Resume, degrees, licenses and references from professionals. This way we can all know who the real experts are. Now what I just said is really demanding and it puts you parrot heads in a bad mood because I put you down. OUR BIRDS are just like OUR CHILDREN. We are parents and have our own ways of raising them. Your child might go to Yale or your child might be a serial killer no one knows how they will be when they grow up. Yes there is parenting (training) that improve on learning and a better way of life. This should be applied to how we raise our birds. You can have your son be on a football team - you can have your bird fly, recall, jump or glide. Proper training would be a good idea just like with your son practicing football. He’s not going to be the star quarterback on his first day. He’s not going to have the muscle or strength at the beginning but we train him anyway. Same with the birds yes there is always risk involved. Your bird is at risk at home in his/her cage. This will always be a fact of life. Every living being lives to learn. How can our birds learn if they are not exposed to the elements? If a bird wants to fly outdoors then it’s naturally comfortable. You can’t force a bird to fly outdoors unless you deprive it of food or you throw it, and yes if a predator attacks. If you’re going outside with your bird USE YOUR BRAIN and look for the obvious. I am not an expert on birds I have experience in management medicine microbiology marine biology and aquaculture. I have multiple birds some rescues. They all know naturally what to do in an emergency. Just like a dog knows how to swim if it fell into a body of water. I would appreciate that people don’t discriminate, critique overall badmouth other members of any networking resource (facebook, myspace, twitter, etc). Some people use their profiles as resumes and cannot afford having comments made by someone that was not present at the event nor ever met the bird or owner. I don’t know you and this is the first time I’ve been to your blog page. My comment is not negative it’s informative as they should be. So if you want help others by telling them what they have to do and not do ask them first if they want the information from you. It will save you time and frustration. Or maybe that’s the problem too much time. Not enough interaction with birds and or family/friends. Please feel free to comment on my comment because I am one of those people that don’t care what others think.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I don’t understand most of what the point is above, or where the apparent anger is coming from, but undomesticated animals like a parrots, raised in captivity without natural parents or exposure to the outdoor environment — and who are often clipped and never fledged — is not in a position to learn “naturally.” Nor is one who has been sedentary for years, or one who has damaged wings. That’s like throwing a puppy, or a couch potato dog out onto a city street so it can “learn” how to live in an urban environment. I sincerely wish people would “use their brain and look for the obvious.” Having the physical equipment and preparation for flying is one of those really obvious things, at least I thought it was.
I have also said on many occasions, ask for credentials and resumes. There are good people out there, available through many different sources. PLEASE do check their credentials, not just the ones they manufacture for themselves claiming to be the “world famous” this or that, but ask other professionals about them, find out who they studied with, who they have worked with, who they collaborate with. Good trainers are more than happy to endorse and recommend other good trainers. It only helps everyone to have as much sound information out there as possible.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Since this blog is supposedly a resource to be used for training and enrichment it is supremely irresponsible to rush to conclusions and to belittle other parrot owners when YOU personally are not aware of the owner’s skill level, parrot’s physical state/flight skill level, and environment in which the training is taking place. Having the mental capacity to understand this is one of those really obvious things, at least I thought it was. I would really like to find a single serious blogger who believes this isn’t true.
(Oh, gee, there you go being “bitter” again)
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Why the defensiveness when this is not directed at parrots who *do* have the required skills?? I’m addressing cases where birds do NOT have the skills and the owners rush to fly them outside. Of course I don’t know the parrot’s physical state. What I’m trying to describe is what a good physical state is, for freeflying, if the bird is to be fit to handle outdoor challenges and dangers.
If there are no dangers, say someone lives in the middle of a large, flat plain with no trees, that could be a good place to practice skills with a bird who has limitations. In a typical urban/suburban/small town environment with buildings, cars, cats, raptors, tall trees, etc., that’s asking for trouble if a bird is not a skilled flyer.
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:44 am
Raz is right, I understand exactly what she means,
All you have to do is look on youtube under “free flighted parrot training” too see just how many idiots are flying adult clipped birds across are garden by launching them into the air or collapsing the perch they are sitting on.
Or even worse, I have seen a blue and gold macaw on youtube who has a full set of primaries on both wings but has some rope around her leg, the owner launches her, the bird fly as far as she can, fairly low until the rope comes to its end and yanks the bird down to the ground, nearly pulling its leg off as it shouts in pain. You can find this video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jszoh_dufe&feature=channel_page. This video is entitled “MACAW FLIGHT TRAINING BLOOPER”. I have emailed this owner politely saying how this method is NOT parrot free flight training, It is also dangerous and not teaching any skills in which Raz is stressing.
I have nothing againsed this owner as a person, I’m sure she is lovely, but like most people who recon they are free flight trainers, she did get defensive to justify this method of free flight training…well actually I would not even call it a method. I suggested to her that she joined Chris Biros list which I hope you all know as well as I do. And also spent a whole lot of time on sites such as Raz’s.
As Raz has said, she is not talking about people who already have fully trained birds, these are birds who are indoor birds etc with no previous experience that need to understand about altitude, manoeuvres, and if you like, ‘breaking distances’, as the bird in the video clearly does not know how to land, resulting in its leg being yanked.
For these reasons I stick firmly to Chris Biros methods of free flight, all my birds I have raised myself and trained to fly as a fledglings. I only have one Greenwing who was trained at about 2 years old through similar methods discussed on this sort of page.
I rarely use these sites for communication, I would rather use private email to people who I know have experience, as every where I turn I just see people having a go at each other over petty little issues and petty little snipes at each other.
After seeing this type of video on youtube, I do worry about what birds are in what predicaments and who the hell thinks they know what the hell they are doing.
Before making comments, make sure you fully understand what people are talking about. And please if you want to start training even an adult bird, just shut up and listen to what people are telling you who HAVE birds that FLY OUTSIDE. And who are FULLY TRAINED.
Thanks Darlings lol
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:38 am
Please read Raz’s Blog carefully. If your birds are physically capable strong flyers and have been properly trained, it is wonderful to watch them fly. Rethink this, if you are so angry then there is a possibility that you don’t feel your birds are qualified to fly outside yet. If they truly are, then you know that Raz wasn’t directing her blog at you. She only wants to reinforce to people like myself, and there are many, that good trainers and capable birds make it look easy, and not to risk loosing your bird if your are not. So if you are, fly and be happy.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:06 am
I for one was glad to read these comments. I was about to sign up for a training workshop in san diego for a whopping $1500, but then I went to their website and the very first line was that the trainer was one of the “most famous trainers in the world,” just like you said above. And then I saw an article from a news station where that trainer lost his macaw, but in the same interview claims to have never lost a bird! How can you say you never lost a bird, in an article about losing your bird? I am so glad for sites like this where these things can be exposed. I am so glad I didn’t waste that money! Thank you for that.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
ATTENTION ALL IDIOTS!!!! THIS MESSAGE COMES FROM SOMEONE THAT HAS BIRDS AND HAS BEEN TEACHING THEM HOW TO FLY.
Pick up a book. Or call a certified verified professional trainer. If you want to fly your bird. DO NOT and I repeat. DO NOT go to websites that are put together by people with too much free time.
Ask your trainers for references to go to that are real professionals. Anyone can build a website and copy and paste items from other sites or just spew their own garbage. So I advise you to leave this site and follow my instructions and locate and call a professional before you train your bird. The person that is putting this information on this website is not a licensed professional. If you read the items take them under serious consideration before teaching or using these methods on your bird. As in my first comment Raz did not answer my question and basically retold what I wrote.
There will always be people posting videos on you tube and other sites. There will never be a time where everything is the way we want it to be. The problem in the BIRD world is we have too many people taking birds and trying to become someone. Kind of like when you pick up a guitar as a Christmas present and now you try your hardest to be the next hot track in the world as a performer. Too many people are talking their own ways to train on AOL FACEBOOK MYSPACE TWITTER AND MORE. I suggest you all back away with your comments and suggestions and let the pros do their jobs.
As far as the last comment goes, people that work with birds everyday and have to proper training certifications and knowledge can have accidents it happens. Doctors make mistakes. Lets face it people if you love your bird or birds use your brain and make the decision on what your going to do. Don’t complain about it to other people and most of all DO NOT BELIVE IN WHAT YOU READ IN BLOGS. That’s why its called a BLOG B-Bunch L-longwinded O-over thought G-garbage. There it is. My suggestion to everyone is that you start with the government and go from there. The national Audubon society has information and can point you in the right direction. If you happen to go to world known parks such as SeaWorld and Busch Gardens see the show and then ask the trainers and handlers. It maybe a good idea to visit your local national pet store and ask if there is a book or information that they can give you. I know of many places petsmart,petco and pet supermarket that all have books and informative people.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:19 am
It’s very interesting that this particular post, about something like flight skills which among all experienced trainers that I know is a completely non-controversial subject — including trainers I don’t particularly agree with on other things, like Biro — is the one that has incited so much defensiveness and rancor, as well as completely off topic comments.
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Methinks someone doth protest too much.
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Another really weird coincidence (?) is that commenter “Dave” has the same IPAddress as a previous commenter “Ron” (whose subject was also a prominent SD trainer who had a bird missing for a while after a night show) — and both of those are the same IPAddress as previous commenter “Joe Krathwohl”, who has been encouraging someone to fly a partially clipped bird with poor skills.
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Lol, this is funny, put your underwear back on love, I think you will find Raz is a very well educated person, and lots of us who contribute to websites such as this ARE professionals, you know, people who’s lives revolve around birds. Who spend everyday, who get paid for training, and I think you will find that the contracting bird show who left sea world sometime ago and is currently producing several other bird shows including the one at the “world famous SAN DIEGO GOD DAM ZOO” is owned by STEVE MARTIN, who is undeniably one of the best trainers in the world, If you don’t believe in this then you clearly don’t know his work, and so clearly don’t know parrots they way you should and clearly should not be caring for one as a pet, let alone even think about FREE FLYING ONE, like you said, leave it to us professionals, I have lost birds during shows, it happens but as usual I got them back. I suppose you don’t think that a good recovery plan is necessary either, as well as no flight skills, to be frank I think that if you don’t like the fact that Raz is trying to stress the importance of flight skills, then you should go somewhere else with your clearly ununderstanding of freeflight-ness.. I look forward to your polite return comment. Unless you decide to take my advise and go argue with yourself about something else, may I suggest, ice cream as a combo with onions. :/
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm
It’s funny how everyone keep mentioning free flying! I personally Know the bird and owner that Raz is targeting! And if you payed any attention you would realize that the assistance that Mr. Krathwohl is providing is for RECALL… Not Free Flight. If you watched her videos you would see she stands no more then 2-4 feet from the bird! The bird is clipped because it is being trained on recalls NOT free flight at this time. When the bird is more experienced and capable (full feather) then maybe it will go through free flight lessons!! And as you so dominantly point out on your blogs, Free Flight and Recall Training are 2 seperate things!!
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
In the videos she is doing recall outdoors, with no restraint. No matter how long the distance is, that’s “free flight.” If the bird were spooked, or if a breeze came through, it could easily take off with the amount of wings it has. I have seen birds do that. And with that kind of clip he’d have a very poor chance of being able to control his flight. There’s a reason why people train indoors first. It may look really cool to have videos outside, but it’s not so cool when you discover just how far a clipped bird can go on a “2-4 ft recall”. No one in their right mind would deliberately clip a bird “because” they wanted to do recall training. I also point out that recall and flight skills should be taught together. Joe himself used to be a big proponent of developing excellent flight skills before taking a bird outdoors, but it appears he has other priorities now.
My concern is not “targeting” any specific trainer or bird. But a lot of people see videos like these and think they can do that with their poorly flighted bird too. Someone needs to point out that it’s a very risky thing to do, and any trainer encouraging that does not have the best interests of the bird in mind.
September 3rd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
For those who want to comment anonymously, you’re going to have to do better than pseudonyms and fake email addresses. The odds that three different commenters (say, for example, “Dave,” “Ron,” and “Joe”) would randomly have the same address, even if they were all on AOL and all in the same region of the country, are more than 4 billion to one, going by the way AOL assigns addresses. When you add in the fact that IP addresses are generally recycled back to the same computer whenever possible, the odds are even slimmer.
Comments have been closed on this thread since they are getting very off topic and rambly.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Mr. Krathwohl did help me with the concept of TARGETING, but having fun with my clipped pet bird is obviously NOT free flight. Do you just hate everyone? Why don’t you discuss the times that your bird has been lost? You even told people you now need a name tag on your bird…I don’t. My bird was clipped before she was GIVEN to me…I did not have her clipped. And further more, she fledged before they clipped her and she has been recalling since she was 16 weeks old! She can bank around a corner, she can recall down from heights at about 25 feet…but you wouldn’t know that because you never asked. Get the story straight before you go attacking someone next time. And another thing I find odd…you friend requested my boyfriend on facebook and deleted me as a friend the day before you wrote this post…is that your way of keeping tabs on me or are you going to send that little 14 year old to chat with me again for 20 questions?
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
I’m glad you’re having fun with your clipped bird outside. ANY bird who is missing outer wing feathers like that does NOT have the skills for being flown outdoors. Period. And if she fledged as a baby it was sure not obvious from her first indoor recalls. Outdoors she could barely handle a tiny bit of breeze from a 3 ft recall at the beach. You are more than free to do whatever you want. The blog post was not addressed to you, nor did it name you, your bird, or your mentor. The purpose of my blog is to share my own experiences, and pass along the best training information that I can find from reputable sources so others will have some point of reference. I have not found any experienced trainer who thinks a bird in your macaw’s flight condition is prepared for working outdoors.
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I dropped you as a contact so that I would not see posts of people doing very reckless things with their birds, while giving instructions that no one is to say anything critical about it. I sent the other friend request several days before that because I thought he was also interested in training; he approved it later after a I realized that was a mistake. I have no interest or time to “keep tabs” on anyone who clearly doesn’t want input from anyone except cheerleaders.
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I find it most interesting that your favorite trainer thinks it’s necessary to invent personas to post comments. Is that because he wants people to think he has more supporters than he does? Or because he is too cowardly to criticize Steve Martin publicly? Publicly he fawns over him and tries to compare himself to him as one of the best trainers in the world.
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As for losing my bird, three times I have not known her whereabouts because she had landed somewhere and immediately was taken inside or driven away by a well-meaning person who thought she was lost before I made it to where she was. Every time I was just down the beach from her. I have written about all of them, on my blog and elsewhere, including what training steps I took to prevent it after the second incident. This last time she was chasing gulls, it was hot, she landed on a roof, the homeowner called her down immediately and took her inside and called a person with a lost grey who immediately came to get her. She did not do anything that was unacceptable to me. We fly in an area dense with people and houses. Having a phone number on her band is a simple solution to prevent any misunderstandings about where she belongs if she lands for some reason.
The only other time she was missing was when she was flying around the trees at the park and was attacked by a hawk, then hunkered down and spent the night in a tree. Fortunately she had the flight skills to survive that incident with only a moderate puncture wound, and she flew down to me at the crack of dawn the next morning. I blogged about that incident also.
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I sincerely hope you don’t need a name tag on your bird, or that if you do it will be because she has been found safe. The person who tried to claim Carly had his bird outside, clipped, and she caught a bit of breeze. Carly can fly well, had just been on a huge flight, and took a pit stop before she got back to me; she was safe the entire time she was missing. His bird has never been found.